FBで流れてきたけど、２０１３年のもの。
面白い。
チョムスキーってのは、無政府主義者というんだけど、その実質は如何に、といったところ。
Noam Chomsky: Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal families to, say, imperial systems, and it asks whether those systems are justified. It assumes that the burden of proof for anyone in a position of power and authority lies on them. Their authority is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification. And if they can’t justify that authority and power and control, which is the usual case, then the authority ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just. And, as I understand it, anarchy is just that tendency. It takes different forms at different times.
Anarcho-syndicalism is a particular variety of anarchism which was concerned primarily, though not solely, but primarily with control over work, over the work place, over production. It took for granted that working people ought to control their own work, its conditions, [that] they ought to control the enterprises in which they work, along with communities, so they should be associated with one another in free associations, and … democracy of that kind should be the foundational elements of a more general free society. And then, you know, ideas are worked out about how exactly that should manifest itself, but I think that is the core of anarcho-syndicalist thinking. I mean it’s not at all the general image that you described — people running around the streets, you know, breaking store windows — but [anarcho-syndicalism] is a conception of a very organized society, but organized from below by direct participation at every level, with as little control and domination as is feasible, maybe none.
無政府主義というのは、支配や権威、階級というものに懐疑的な傾向であって、権力者は、その権限について説明責任を負い、説明できなければ、より自由で正義にかなったものに置き換えなければならない、と。
アナルコサンディカリスムとは、一種の無政府主義であって、労働、労働環境、労働条件、生産、企画などを、地域社会と協働して、労働者自身が管理するものであって、無秩序に、飛び回ったり、窓を割ったりするものではなく、社会が、あらゆるレベルで、支配関係なしに、下から、直接参加によって組織だてられるものである、と。
So why should we prefer it? Well I think because freedom is better than subordination. It’s better to be free than to be a slave. It's better to be able to make your own decisions than to have someone else make decisions and force you to observe them. I mean, I don’t think you really need an argument for that. It seems like … transparent.
The thing you need an argument for, and should give an argument for, is, How can we best proceed in that direction? And there are lots of ways within the current society. One way, incidentally, is through use of the state, to the extent that it is democratically controlled. I mean in the long run, anarchists would like to see the state eliminated. But it exists, alongside of private power, and the state is, at least to a certain extent, under public influence and control — could be much more so. And it provides devices to constrain the much more dangerous forces of private power. Rules for safety and health in the workplace for example. Or insuring that people have decent health care, let’s say.
国家は最終的には消えてもらうが、その途中においては、民主的な過程を経て、市民の安全や健康健康保険など、民間企業にまかせては危険な分野を統制していくのだ、と。
リバタリアンは無政府主義に近いと言われるが、
、
Chomsky: Well what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon, it doesn’t really exist anywhere else — a little bit in England — permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power: so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes.
あれは無政府ではなく、一部の民間企業による支配なだけなんだ、と。
チョムスキーはプロパガンダモデルでよく知られるが、
Chomsky: Well first look back a bit — a little historical framework — back in the late 19th-, early 20th century, a good deal of freedom had been won in some societies. At the peak of this were in fact the United States and Britain. By no means free societies, but by comparative standards quite advanced in this respect. In fact so advanced, that power systems — state and private — began to recognize that things were getting to a point where they can’t control the population by force as easily as before, so they are going to have to turn to other means of control. And the other means of control are control of beliefs and attitudes. And out of that grew the public relations industry, which in those days described itself honestly as an industry of propaganda.
英米のように自由が尊重されるようになってくると、物理的強制によって国民を支配できなくなるから、宣伝をつかって、国民の態度や思いを操作することで、国民の自発的同意を得ていくような技術が発達するのだ、と。
ーーー民主主義といって、実質的に、上層部、１％や１０％の富裕層に支配されている社会というのは、プロパガンダ、宣伝によって、権力者に都合のいいことが、自分たちにとっても、いいことだ、しょうがないんだ、と思い込まされているわけでしょうね。
チョムスキーというのは、日本のマルクス主義者にかなり、近いものがあるし、また、フランクフルト学派とかとの交流はどうなっているんでしょうね。
