It seems that Bapak seemed to admit reincarnation.
And that was for a certain person, not just for people like Dalai Lama, for everyone else.
If so, it is just the same teaching as Hinduism and Buddhism that recognize "Reborn and life (Jiwa: Jiva) will continue".
Well Bapak was talking about reincarnation with many talks.
And so far it has not appeared so much on the table.
It seemed probably because Bapak was Islam ,so "there is never such awareness that is closer to Hinduism or Buddhism".
However, such prejudice seems to have been wrong.
For that reason, I will quote relevant parts from Bapak's talk below.
List of quoted talks
October 8, 1957 - Bapak
November 11, 1957 - Bapak
November 22, 1958 - Bapak
June 30, 1959 - Bapak
August 7, 1959 - Bapak
March 28, 1960 - Bapak
Edit Q & A 1971 - Bapak
February 3, 1974 - Bapak
October, 16 1977 - Bapak
October 20, 1977 - Bapak
November 12, 1977 - Bapak
December 11, 1977 - Bapak
Febuary 3, 1980 - Bapak
April 8, 1984 - Bapak
April 21, 1984 - Bapak
July 8, 1984 - Bapak
June 11, 1985 - Bapak
February 27, 2015-Ibu
February 5, 2016 - Ibu
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
October 8, 1957 - Bapak
That's why it's said that human beings who have reached perfection, who have received God's grace, God's gift, don't die when they die, but rather they then begin to live.
As an example that you won't forget, my children, because it's been told of in the Christian religion, there's the Prophet Jesus himself.
It's not that the Prophet Jesus didn't die, but he continued living, and it's a life without limits.
This is just an example; it's something you can take into consideration in deciding whether what Bapak has said is true or not.
However, a person who hasn't yet reached that level, or who still has a body of desires ( nafsu ), when they die - as Bapak has been saying - will have no understanding of the fact at all; the person won't be aware of having died.
This is because such a person's contents return to their source, but not to the true human level (rohani), because the person came from below that level.
As a result, human beings left behind with their desires ( nafsu ) wander around in whatever they imagined, in the things they gave a lot of thought to when they were on earth.
(Note: Bapak says that it is a ghost.)
That's how it is.
That's the reason why in Buddhism it's told that reincarnation is a fact, as indeed it is.
But it applies only to those individuals who went astray on the path to God, or the path to perfection.
For this reason, in Buddhism there's this teaching: that if a human being has already reached a high level, then that person will be free from reincarnation, will be free from this world.
This is why they (Buddhist) try to understand the true nature of the spirits ( roh ) that a little while ago Bapak called forces, which originate from material objects, from plants, from animals and from ordinary human beings.
Because it lacks knowledge of these forces, the human soul ( jiwa ), or the soul of a person who hasn't actually reached such a high level, can very easily get lost in any place where the forces are stronger than the soul itself.
This is what reincarnation is.
However, we ourselves hope and desire - as far as possible, if God permits it, if God gives us this gift - not to experience this.
And we beseech God not to let us return to a place that is lower than the true human level.
In other words, we hope to know where we really ought to return, and that's to the place of origin of the perfect human being - the insan kamil as people usually call it, which means the perfect human being, the human being who is separated from this world in which we are now living.
And we hope that after death we'll experience the real afterlife, not the world again.
This world is not the afterlife.
For this reason, people usually speak of the heavens.
We can enter the realm of these heavens after we have become free of the oppression of the subhuman forces, and also of our own desires ( nafsu ), which continuously take advantage of our relationship with these forces of a lower level than our own.
In the training ( latihan ), we don't, in any way whatever, ally ourselves with the desires, with the levels below us, with anything that was created by human beings in the past - in other words, with creations powered by desire and called 'isms', or spiritism, or any other such things.
This is because these desires have no use and no goal except to enable one to be seen as a person with strange abilities, with powers surpassing those of other people.
As a result of such things, a person becomes bound more tightly, and then bound very tightly, to the subhuman forces.
Finally they block the way entirely, so that the person cannot penetrate to the realm of the heavens that has been prepared for perfect human beings.
That's the way it is.
November 11, 1957 - Bapak
This training ( latihan ) is the opposite.
It breaks down and casts out from inside, so you will gradually get to know and come in contact with states outside of man's domain.
Eventually, with this training, you can get to know things outside this earth.
While the other, as Bapak just said, brings all kinds of clutter into the inner feeling.
If Bapak may draw an analogy, bringing all that into the self is as if you do not go out of your house to see how things are, but you go into the house and lock yourself in.
Then all you ever know is in your house.
That is the difference.
One day, if you are able to receive it, you will yourselves know and become aware of this difference.
You will be able to go out of your house and know the greatness of the life that envelops this earth, and also beyond this earth, so that you are not subject to reincarnation.
We have been here for a long time.
We are tired, and if we can, we look for a way out.
The other, the practice of meditation, and quieting oneself, is really looking, not for a way out, but for a way into the hall.
When Bapak refers to the hall or house within man's self, he means all that is within the self of a human being.
The forces below the human being are: the material or satanic, the vegetable or plant force, the animal, and the human.
For these, there is reincarnation.
So if you only stay in your house, when later you die, you could be here, you could be on the level of plants, you could be on the animal level, or you could be on the human level.
In other words, you would come back here.
(Note: Return to the this world called earth)
And you would come back, not in the right form but in the wrong form.
What you have received is not like that.
There is a clearing out from within.
Of course, the clearing out depends on what is in the house.
If there are all kinds of things piled one on top of the other, and there are hordes of cats, mice, dogs, cows, water-buffaloes and flower pots in the house, naturally it takes a great deal of work to clean.
November 22, 1958 - Bapak
How can we describe the sickness of the soul that is within the self of man?
( The soul ) is the inner content within the self of human beings; the content that enables human beings to think, to feel, to do this and to do that.
But it is by no means certain that this content of a human being is truly a human soul.
The proof of this is that not a few clever people, who have studied to a very advanced level and who have all kinds of titles, still unwittingly, unconsciously, do things that go against and violate a code of human behavior.
The reason for this is that the content of their being - that is, their soul - is not a human soul that is really able to keep its promises to God.
It is filled with a low soul that is wrong.
Because of their negligence, because of their stressed and disturbed behavior, within their being there is a wrong content or soul - that is, a subhuman soul.
This is mentioned in Buddhism; it's what they call reincarnation.
That is to say, there are levels in the souls of human beings, and if the state of a human being is not yet really complete, he cannot possibly rise up, but is still reincarnated.
So it is important that the blocks that cause us to be incarnated again should be removed, but... ( inaudible ) ...
the Almighty than in this world.
Now, why is it that in Islam and Christianity there is no such thing as reincarnation?
The reason is that the names Christianity and Islam signify the state of a perfect human being.
But the people who follow these religions are not yet ( perfect human beings ); so while the religion really does not favor reincarnation, its followers are not always able to carry out fully what their religion requires.
(Note: It means that it is not certain whether or not you can escape from this loop of reincarnation , when facing death.)
June 30, 1959 - Bapak
From the material to the human - from level one to four - it is indeed possible for us to fathom these four forces by quieting our thinking mind, our heart and our desires.
This is because these forces are still connected with the human will.
That is why it's said that, for as long as people still use the power of their heart and brain, they will need to come back down and become human beings again.
This is something you may have read about, called reincarnation.
But if you are blessed by God and are able to ascend to a higher level - to the fifth level, which is nobler than the human - you may not wish to come back down to this world and become human beings again.
For the fact is that human beings - yes, like all of you - do not have contentment, because you are affected by all the things that touch you.
For example, you are affected by the cold, by cold things; by heat, by hot things; you are affected by this and that; you still suffer from this and that.
August 7, 1959 - Bapak
In this way too, you will surely be able to choose which one of them is more pleasant and happier for you than the others. So there will be no compulsion to reincarnate in a material object, a plant, an animal, or a person without you being aware of it. Instead you will be able to go home to that blessed world they call the world ...
If the vegetable force influences you, then in your energy or personality you will be closer to plants than to other ( forms of life ).
You will be able to witness and feel how the vegetable force acts in our feelings, and also how our feelings are when the vegetable force carries them away to its world.
Similarly with the animal force: you will be able to feel and be aware how the animal force influences our inner feeling, so that our inner feeling can really feel how it is.
Also, we can witness and receive how our feelings and personality are if they are carried away to its world, that is, the animal world.
It is the same with the force of people.
You will be able to be aware and know how the force of people gets into our feelings, and how it is when that force carries our feelings and awareness away to its world.
Also, when the force higher than human - the rohani force - influences our inner feeling, we are able to receive it with clarity and awareness; and we can be aware and feel how it is when it carries our feelings away to the rohani world.
In this way we can feel and know the truth: how pleasant it really is to dwell or stay in the worlds of each of these forces.
In this way too, you will surely be able to choose which one of them is more pleasant and happier for you than the others.
So there will be no compulsion to reincarnate in a material object, a plant, an animal, or a person without you being aware of it.
Instead you will be able to go home to that blessed world they call the world of the complete human being.
March 28, 1960 - Bapak
Only then, when everything is clean and good, can we find the rohani spirit.
Only then does this spirit manifest in our inner feeling so that, while we are still in this world, we can actually experience not only how our life is in the world but also how our life will be later, after death.
So for people in general - for you - who are not yet clean and are still very much controlled by the desires, heart and thinking mind, it is really very difficult to receive and feel the power of the rohani force.
As long as you are still enmeshed in the influence of the low forces - that is, the material, plant, animal and physical human forces - you will not be able to ascend when you die.
When you die it will be impossible for you to go up; you will still have to come back here.
And if you come back here, it is not certain that you will come back as a human being.
Perhaps you may come back as a material object, or a plant, or an animal.
That is why, here and elsewhere, animals are given special treatment and regarded as holy, because it is indeed possible that an animal may have been occupied by the spirit of someone who was unable to ascend and who returned to this earth and entered an animal's body.
That is what is usually called reincarnation.
There are many people - Bapak is not blaming them, no - but there are still many who revere stones.
They picture stones in their imagination and think of them, and consider them to be higher than themselves; so they worship stones; meaning, that they ask for their blessing, their grace, their benefit, and their prayers.
Why is this?
It is because it really has happened, that a person who is unable to ascend has returned within a stone, within a material object.
So there is a kind of power in that stone.
But who makes a stone powerful?
Quite simply, people themselves.
Especially in the case of an idol.
Every night you prostrate yourself before it, and you put flowers and incense on it.
Every night before you go to sleep you do these things, and in the end it becomes more powerful than your own self.
It is the same with plants.
There are people who worship trees.
They consider a tree as sacred, so they bring food and put it on the tree.
They bring all kinds of things and put them on the tree.
They even make all kinds of sacrifices: they slaughter goats and this and that under the tree, because they regard the tree as sacred.
This is also the same with animals and people.
That is why, in religion, God gave instructions to His messengers that people should not behave like that, and that they should give more attention to their own selves as human beings.
For the life and death of a human being is within their body.
So, if you do not look after your body from the outside to the inside and from the inside to the outside, your self has no value whatever, either in the eyes of human beings or in the eyes or the power of God.
If we human beings go on and on paying more attention to material objects, plants and animals than to our own selves as human beings, as time goes on we are sure to descend to a lower and lower status.
So, from the point of view of our inner feeling, this human body will be of no use at all.
And then there will be no use in God creating human beings in this world with a perfect body like this, whose nature is wiser, more capable, and more intelligent than material objects, plants, animals and the physical life force of people themselves.
These are the reasons why the lives of some people in this world become dark, and why they come to a point where they are at a loss as to how to live and be happy in this world.
Whereas, in fact, human beings have been created in this world with intelligence and a conscience, which means that we are more able to work things out, and are more able to possess a noble character than other entities; that is to say, material objects, plants and animals.
Bapak's Answers To Members Questions - A Compilation - 1971 - Bapak
Reincarnation and the latihan
Bapak confirms that experiences such as you have received in the latihan do indeed exist in Subud.
Many brothers in Indonesia as well as abroad have had similar experiences.
This is because the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud is very wide and everything can be met with that accords with one's own nature.
As you already know, the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud is moved by the Power of Almighty God and the nature of the latihan is to make the whole self alive, from the coarse part as well as the fine part up to the djiwa, beginning in the lowest and moving to the highest.
This is necessary, so that our body, both coarse and fine parts, can become good, and also our djiwa, which has fallen because of our faults.
From the development of our life, proceeding from God in the above way, we automatically experience changes and improvements in ourselves towards perfection.
So if in the latihan we receive, for instance, that formerly we lived as a king, a priest, a very rich man and so on, also that formerly we lived as an animal - an elephant, a cow, a snake, a tiger, a monkey, etc. - all this needs to be cleaned and repaired so that our inner nature can improve to a state of perfection, and at the end we need not live again as we have in the past.
There are religious societies which teach about reincarnation, but reincarnation is in reality only a stage because, as it is said, if a man has reached the stage of virtue he will not reincarnate again as a man unless it is needed by Almighty God.
From all this it is clear to us that the question of reincarnation does exist in the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud but with this difference: reincarnation in Subud is a life-process for a man, worked out and acted upon by the Power of God, not by the desire of man.
That is why we may easily experience purifications and improvements within ourselves.
Proof of this has already been given in the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud in which many among our brothers have shown themselves in the latihans as priests, rich men, famous men, poor men, stupid men and so on, and not a few have shown themselves as wild and tame animals.
All these are spiritual experiences and truly need to be cleansed, so that finally the perfect state can be attained.
That is all concerning the subject of reincarnation, which we may witness in connection with the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud we have now received.
So if you like to describe your experiences of this matter, that is all right, provided it is made clear that they constitute experiences only. ( I/3/68 )
February 3, 1974 - Bapak
In ancient history, what is called incarnation resembles this.
But in Subud an incarnation is not a fixed certainty.
No; this incarnation is not of a kind that needs to come into existence, for indeed it already exists.
Thus the nature of the incarnation can fall and it can also rise.
Why is that?
It is because this kind of incarnation is caused by one's karma.
In the latihan kejiwaan it is not because of karma, but because of one's faults; never being able to receive and feel separation from what is covering one over - the nafsu.
October, 16 1977 - Bapak
For example, Buddha.
In Buddhism you never hear about anyone going to heaven; you don't hear about Buddha going to heaven. (Note 1)
Because what is experienced in Buddhism is that you keep coming back again to this world.
And this is what is also called reincarnation.
So, it is clear that what was achieved by Said Anwas, and by those who liked to use their heart and mind and their own power, is always limited to this world. (Note 2)
But it is quite different with the descendants of Said Anwar, because they were really able to go to heaven by the will of God Almighty. (Note 2)
And that heaven was not imaginary, but was a real heaven that they could experience.
For example, Jesus Christ.
After he was crucified, three days afterwards, he experienced a great radiance and a great light, and this was accompanied by events that everybody could see - the earth shook and there was a tremendous storm.
October 20, 1977 - Bapak
What they obtain through using their minds and hearts in worshipping God will not be real and true, but on the contrary it will do damage to their human inner selves and they will become lost in the satanic world, in the world of the material life forces.
This is how it is, brothers and sisters, so Bapak only reminds you not to be affected by such influences.
For these are material influences, influences of the material forces.
That is why Buddhists want to be reincarnated; they still wish to return to this world
so that they can come back as superior people who hold power, such as rich men, such as people who have everything they want. (Note 3)
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
Note 1
Buddha may not have been to heaven, but he did not reincarnate.
It is said that it went up to mokṣa or nirvāṇa as a withdrawer from reincarnation. ＜－－ Link （Sorry,Under construction)
And as this is well known, it is the aim of Buddhism.
Bapak said that "The purpose of Buddhism is to return to this world and people do a good life."
But it seems like Bapak's misunderstanding.
Note 2
For Said Anwas, Said Anwar, Sang Hyang Sis, see this article. ＜－－ Link （Sorry,Under construction)
Note 3
Buddhism regards this world as "suffering".
Then, they wish to withdraw from this world, to withdraw from reincarnation. ＜－－ Link
If so, why is Bapak saying "Buddhists want to return to this world"?
It is hard to understand about Bapak who makes such an assertion.
PS
related articles
The theory of jiwa , jīva＜－－ Link
Reincarnation＜－－ Link
PS
Character size you can be changed in the top right corner of the page.
List of articles＜－－Link
And that was for a certain person, not just for people like Dalai Lama, for everyone else.
If so, it is just the same teaching as Hinduism and Buddhism that recognize "Reborn and life (Jiwa: Jiva) will continue".
Well Bapak was talking about reincarnation with many talks.
And so far it has not appeared so much on the table.
It seemed probably because Bapak was Islam ,so "there is never such awareness that is closer to Hinduism or Buddhism".
However, such prejudice seems to have been wrong.
For that reason, I will quote relevant parts from Bapak's talk below.
List of quoted talks
October 8, 1957 - Bapak
November 11, 1957 - Bapak
November 22, 1958 - Bapak
June 30, 1959 - Bapak
August 7, 1959 - Bapak
March 28, 1960 - Bapak
Edit Q & A 1971 - Bapak
February 3, 1974 - Bapak
October, 16 1977 - Bapak
October 20, 1977 - Bapak
November 12, 1977 - Bapak
December 11, 1977 - Bapak
Febuary 3, 1980 - Bapak
April 8, 1984 - Bapak
April 21, 1984 - Bapak
July 8, 1984 - Bapak
June 11, 1985 - Bapak
February 27, 2015-Ibu
February 5, 2016 - Ibu
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
October 8, 1957 - Bapak
That's why it's said that human beings who have reached perfection, who have received God's grace, God's gift, don't die when they die, but rather they then begin to live.
As an example that you won't forget, my children, because it's been told of in the Christian religion, there's the Prophet Jesus himself.
It's not that the Prophet Jesus didn't die, but he continued living, and it's a life without limits.
This is just an example; it's something you can take into consideration in deciding whether what Bapak has said is true or not.
However, a person who hasn't yet reached that level, or who still has a body of desires ( nafsu ), when they die - as Bapak has been saying - will have no understanding of the fact at all; the person won't be aware of having died.
This is because such a person's contents return to their source, but not to the true human level (rohani), because the person came from below that level.
As a result, human beings left behind with their desires ( nafsu ) wander around in whatever they imagined, in the things they gave a lot of thought to when they were on earth.
(Note: Bapak says that it is a ghost.)
That's how it is.
That's the reason why in Buddhism it's told that reincarnation is a fact, as indeed it is.
But it applies only to those individuals who went astray on the path to God, or the path to perfection.
For this reason, in Buddhism there's this teaching: that if a human being has already reached a high level, then that person will be free from reincarnation, will be free from this world.
This is why they (Buddhist) try to understand the true nature of the spirits ( roh ) that a little while ago Bapak called forces, which originate from material objects, from plants, from animals and from ordinary human beings.
Because it lacks knowledge of these forces, the human soul ( jiwa ), or the soul of a person who hasn't actually reached such a high level, can very easily get lost in any place where the forces are stronger than the soul itself.
This is what reincarnation is.
However, we ourselves hope and desire - as far as possible, if God permits it, if God gives us this gift - not to experience this.
And we beseech God not to let us return to a place that is lower than the true human level.
In other words, we hope to know where we really ought to return, and that's to the place of origin of the perfect human being - the insan kamil as people usually call it, which means the perfect human being, the human being who is separated from this world in which we are now living.
And we hope that after death we'll experience the real afterlife, not the world again.
This world is not the afterlife.
For this reason, people usually speak of the heavens.
We can enter the realm of these heavens after we have become free of the oppression of the subhuman forces, and also of our own desires ( nafsu ), which continuously take advantage of our relationship with these forces of a lower level than our own.
In the training ( latihan ), we don't, in any way whatever, ally ourselves with the desires, with the levels below us, with anything that was created by human beings in the past - in other words, with creations powered by desire and called 'isms', or spiritism, or any other such things.
This is because these desires have no use and no goal except to enable one to be seen as a person with strange abilities, with powers surpassing those of other people.
As a result of such things, a person becomes bound more tightly, and then bound very tightly, to the subhuman forces.
Finally they block the way entirely, so that the person cannot penetrate to the realm of the heavens that has been prepared for perfect human beings.
That's the way it is.
November 11, 1957 - Bapak
This training ( latihan ) is the opposite.
It breaks down and casts out from inside, so you will gradually get to know and come in contact with states outside of man's domain.
Eventually, with this training, you can get to know things outside this earth.
While the other, as Bapak just said, brings all kinds of clutter into the inner feeling.
If Bapak may draw an analogy, bringing all that into the self is as if you do not go out of your house to see how things are, but you go into the house and lock yourself in.
Then all you ever know is in your house.
That is the difference.
One day, if you are able to receive it, you will yourselves know and become aware of this difference.
You will be able to go out of your house and know the greatness of the life that envelops this earth, and also beyond this earth, so that you are not subject to reincarnation.
We have been here for a long time.
We are tired, and if we can, we look for a way out.
The other, the practice of meditation, and quieting oneself, is really looking, not for a way out, but for a way into the hall.
When Bapak refers to the hall or house within man's self, he means all that is within the self of a human being.
The forces below the human being are: the material or satanic, the vegetable or plant force, the animal, and the human.
For these, there is reincarnation.
So if you only stay in your house, when later you die, you could be here, you could be on the level of plants, you could be on the animal level, or you could be on the human level.
In other words, you would come back here.
(Note: Return to the this world called earth)
And you would come back, not in the right form but in the wrong form.
What you have received is not like that.
There is a clearing out from within.
Of course, the clearing out depends on what is in the house.
If there are all kinds of things piled one on top of the other, and there are hordes of cats, mice, dogs, cows, water-buffaloes and flower pots in the house, naturally it takes a great deal of work to clean.
November 22, 1958 - Bapak
How can we describe the sickness of the soul that is within the self of man?
( The soul ) is the inner content within the self of human beings; the content that enables human beings to think, to feel, to do this and to do that.
But it is by no means certain that this content of a human being is truly a human soul.
The proof of this is that not a few clever people, who have studied to a very advanced level and who have all kinds of titles, still unwittingly, unconsciously, do things that go against and violate a code of human behavior.
The reason for this is that the content of their being - that is, their soul - is not a human soul that is really able to keep its promises to God.
It is filled with a low soul that is wrong.
Because of their negligence, because of their stressed and disturbed behavior, within their being there is a wrong content or soul - that is, a subhuman soul.
This is mentioned in Buddhism; it's what they call reincarnation.
That is to say, there are levels in the souls of human beings, and if the state of a human being is not yet really complete, he cannot possibly rise up, but is still reincarnated.
So it is important that the blocks that cause us to be incarnated again should be removed, but... ( inaudible ) ...
the Almighty than in this world.
Now, why is it that in Islam and Christianity there is no such thing as reincarnation?
The reason is that the names Christianity and Islam signify the state of a perfect human being.
But the people who follow these religions are not yet ( perfect human beings ); so while the religion really does not favor reincarnation, its followers are not always able to carry out fully what their religion requires.
(Note: It means that it is not certain whether or not you can escape from this loop of reincarnation , when facing death.)
June 30, 1959 - Bapak
From the material to the human - from level one to four - it is indeed possible for us to fathom these four forces by quieting our thinking mind, our heart and our desires.
This is because these forces are still connected with the human will.
That is why it's said that, for as long as people still use the power of their heart and brain, they will need to come back down and become human beings again.
This is something you may have read about, called reincarnation.
But if you are blessed by God and are able to ascend to a higher level - to the fifth level, which is nobler than the human - you may not wish to come back down to this world and become human beings again.
For the fact is that human beings - yes, like all of you - do not have contentment, because you are affected by all the things that touch you.
For example, you are affected by the cold, by cold things; by heat, by hot things; you are affected by this and that; you still suffer from this and that.
August 7, 1959 - Bapak
In this way too, you will surely be able to choose which one of them is more pleasant and happier for you than the others. So there will be no compulsion to reincarnate in a material object, a plant, an animal, or a person without you being aware of it. Instead you will be able to go home to that blessed world they call the world ...
If the vegetable force influences you, then in your energy or personality you will be closer to plants than to other ( forms of life ).
You will be able to witness and feel how the vegetable force acts in our feelings, and also how our feelings are when the vegetable force carries them away to its world.
Similarly with the animal force: you will be able to feel and be aware how the animal force influences our inner feeling, so that our inner feeling can really feel how it is.
Also, we can witness and receive how our feelings and personality are if they are carried away to its world, that is, the animal world.
It is the same with the force of people.
You will be able to be aware and know how the force of people gets into our feelings, and how it is when that force carries our feelings and awareness away to its world.
Also, when the force higher than human - the rohani force - influences our inner feeling, we are able to receive it with clarity and awareness; and we can be aware and feel how it is when it carries our feelings away to the rohani world.
In this way we can feel and know the truth: how pleasant it really is to dwell or stay in the worlds of each of these forces.
In this way too, you will surely be able to choose which one of them is more pleasant and happier for you than the others.
So there will be no compulsion to reincarnate in a material object, a plant, an animal, or a person without you being aware of it.
Instead you will be able to go home to that blessed world they call the world of the complete human being.
March 28, 1960 - Bapak
Only then, when everything is clean and good, can we find the rohani spirit.
Only then does this spirit manifest in our inner feeling so that, while we are still in this world, we can actually experience not only how our life is in the world but also how our life will be later, after death.
So for people in general - for you - who are not yet clean and are still very much controlled by the desires, heart and thinking mind, it is really very difficult to receive and feel the power of the rohani force.
As long as you are still enmeshed in the influence of the low forces - that is, the material, plant, animal and physical human forces - you will not be able to ascend when you die.
When you die it will be impossible for you to go up; you will still have to come back here.
And if you come back here, it is not certain that you will come back as a human being.
Perhaps you may come back as a material object, or a plant, or an animal.
That is why, here and elsewhere, animals are given special treatment and regarded as holy, because it is indeed possible that an animal may have been occupied by the spirit of someone who was unable to ascend and who returned to this earth and entered an animal's body.
That is what is usually called reincarnation.
There are many people - Bapak is not blaming them, no - but there are still many who revere stones.
They picture stones in their imagination and think of them, and consider them to be higher than themselves; so they worship stones; meaning, that they ask for their blessing, their grace, their benefit, and their prayers.
Why is this?
It is because it really has happened, that a person who is unable to ascend has returned within a stone, within a material object.
So there is a kind of power in that stone.
But who makes a stone powerful?
Quite simply, people themselves.
Especially in the case of an idol.
Every night you prostrate yourself before it, and you put flowers and incense on it.
Every night before you go to sleep you do these things, and in the end it becomes more powerful than your own self.
It is the same with plants.
There are people who worship trees.
They consider a tree as sacred, so they bring food and put it on the tree.
They bring all kinds of things and put them on the tree.
They even make all kinds of sacrifices: they slaughter goats and this and that under the tree, because they regard the tree as sacred.
This is also the same with animals and people.
That is why, in religion, God gave instructions to His messengers that people should not behave like that, and that they should give more attention to their own selves as human beings.
For the life and death of a human being is within their body.
So, if you do not look after your body from the outside to the inside and from the inside to the outside, your self has no value whatever, either in the eyes of human beings or in the eyes or the power of God.
If we human beings go on and on paying more attention to material objects, plants and animals than to our own selves as human beings, as time goes on we are sure to descend to a lower and lower status.
So, from the point of view of our inner feeling, this human body will be of no use at all.
And then there will be no use in God creating human beings in this world with a perfect body like this, whose nature is wiser, more capable, and more intelligent than material objects, plants, animals and the physical life force of people themselves.
These are the reasons why the lives of some people in this world become dark, and why they come to a point where they are at a loss as to how to live and be happy in this world.
Whereas, in fact, human beings have been created in this world with intelligence and a conscience, which means that we are more able to work things out, and are more able to possess a noble character than other entities; that is to say, material objects, plants and animals.
Bapak's Answers To Members Questions - A Compilation - 1971 - Bapak
Reincarnation and the latihan
Bapak confirms that experiences such as you have received in the latihan do indeed exist in Subud.
Many brothers in Indonesia as well as abroad have had similar experiences.
This is because the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud is very wide and everything can be met with that accords with one's own nature.
As you already know, the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud is moved by the Power of Almighty God and the nature of the latihan is to make the whole self alive, from the coarse part as well as the fine part up to the djiwa, beginning in the lowest and moving to the highest.
This is necessary, so that our body, both coarse and fine parts, can become good, and also our djiwa, which has fallen because of our faults.
From the development of our life, proceeding from God in the above way, we automatically experience changes and improvements in ourselves towards perfection.
So if in the latihan we receive, for instance, that formerly we lived as a king, a priest, a very rich man and so on, also that formerly we lived as an animal - an elephant, a cow, a snake, a tiger, a monkey, etc. - all this needs to be cleaned and repaired so that our inner nature can improve to a state of perfection, and at the end we need not live again as we have in the past.
There are religious societies which teach about reincarnation, but reincarnation is in reality only a stage because, as it is said, if a man has reached the stage of virtue he will not reincarnate again as a man unless it is needed by Almighty God.
From all this it is clear to us that the question of reincarnation does exist in the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud but with this difference: reincarnation in Subud is a life-process for a man, worked out and acted upon by the Power of God, not by the desire of man.
That is why we may easily experience purifications and improvements within ourselves.
Proof of this has already been given in the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud in which many among our brothers have shown themselves in the latihans as priests, rich men, famous men, poor men, stupid men and so on, and not a few have shown themselves as wild and tame animals.
All these are spiritual experiences and truly need to be cleansed, so that finally the perfect state can be attained.
That is all concerning the subject of reincarnation, which we may witness in connection with the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud we have now received.
So if you like to describe your experiences of this matter, that is all right, provided it is made clear that they constitute experiences only. ( I/3/68 )
February 3, 1974 - Bapak
In ancient history, what is called incarnation resembles this.
But in Subud an incarnation is not a fixed certainty.
No; this incarnation is not of a kind that needs to come into existence, for indeed it already exists.
Thus the nature of the incarnation can fall and it can also rise.
Why is that?
It is because this kind of incarnation is caused by one's karma.
In the latihan kejiwaan it is not because of karma, but because of one's faults; never being able to receive and feel separation from what is covering one over - the nafsu.
October, 16 1977 - Bapak
For example, Buddha.
In Buddhism you never hear about anyone going to heaven; you don't hear about Buddha going to heaven. (Note 1)
Because what is experienced in Buddhism is that you keep coming back again to this world.
And this is what is also called reincarnation.
So, it is clear that what was achieved by Said Anwas, and by those who liked to use their heart and mind and their own power, is always limited to this world. (Note 2)
But it is quite different with the descendants of Said Anwar, because they were really able to go to heaven by the will of God Almighty. (Note 2)
And that heaven was not imaginary, but was a real heaven that they could experience.
For example, Jesus Christ.
After he was crucified, three days afterwards, he experienced a great radiance and a great light, and this was accompanied by events that everybody could see - the earth shook and there was a tremendous storm.
October 20, 1977 - Bapak
What they obtain through using their minds and hearts in worshipping God will not be real and true, but on the contrary it will do damage to their human inner selves and they will become lost in the satanic world, in the world of the material life forces.
This is how it is, brothers and sisters, so Bapak only reminds you not to be affected by such influences.
For these are material influences, influences of the material forces.
That is why Buddhists want to be reincarnated; they still wish to return to this world
so that they can come back as superior people who hold power, such as rich men, such as people who have everything they want. (Note 3)
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Note 1
Buddha may not have been to heaven, but he did not reincarnate.
It is said that it went up to mokṣa or nirvāṇa as a withdrawer from reincarnation. ＜－－ Link （Sorry,Under construction)
And as this is well known, it is the aim of Buddhism.
Bapak said that "The purpose of Buddhism is to return to this world and people do a good life."
But it seems like Bapak's misunderstanding.
Note 2
For Said Anwas, Said Anwar, Sang Hyang Sis, see this article. ＜－－ Link （Sorry,Under construction)
Note 3
Buddhism regards this world as "suffering".
Then, they wish to withdraw from this world, to withdraw from reincarnation. ＜－－ Link
If so, why is Bapak saying "Buddhists want to return to this world"?
It is hard to understand about Bapak who makes such an assertion.
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related articles
The theory of jiwa , jīva＜－－ Link
Reincarnation＜－－ Link
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